Hopeless odds

[logan9a]

Does -30 from skill = skill at half?

Does -60 from skill = skill at a quarter?

The question is 'how much of a chance do we want to have at hopeless odds'?



On both of these I would say two things:

Roll first, compute later. If you're trying a skill at a reduction and your full skill is 50%, you've got a great chance at not needing to figure out the odds at all.

Second, if you can't figure it out you can't do it. There is nothing sadder than watching someone who sucks at math trying to figure out what a quarter of 80% is. Just roll the dice. They will come out really high. If they don't but you can't figure out what you are rolling for, blame your math teacher. I don't want to pause the game while you begin trying to figure out what half of a half is. You just fail. Again, blame the math teacher and make your character try easier stuff with no subtractions on it. I'm not asking anyone to figure out what 23% of their skill is. Just half or half of a half. That's it for division.

[bentpaperclip]

The reason we originally switched form half/quarter to -30/60 was because halving penalizes skilled characters more than unskilled characters. For example,

Bob sucks at climbing with a Climb 20. Jill is awesome at climbing with a climb skill of 100. They are both attempting a very difficult climb.

Quarter Skill: Bob must roll a 5 or less. Jill must roll a 25 or less. Bob took a 15 point penalty. Jill took a 75 point penalty.


We arrived at -30/60 because we set 60% as "Professional." Meaning that at extraordinarily difficult tasks, it takes more than a professional to succeed. Does one equal the other? No. Flat negatives favor highly skilled characters. Halving negatives favor low skilled characters.

A note on system consistency: I have yet to see a bonus that doubles or quadruples your skill. Bonuses tend to be flat modifiers.

[logan9a]

Travis speaks wisdom. Flat it is. I'd still go with both my rules.


Freddie is a dolt. Freddy likes having his character do stuff his character has difficulty with. Freddy's character has a 90% climbing. The GM informs Freddy that attempting to climb this crumbling cliff while bad guys throw rocks at him will be at -30%.

Freddy does not understand math because Freddy is a dolt.

"Roll the fucking dice!" yell the gaming group as Freddy's brain parks into neutral.

Freddy thinks 90-30 = 87.

The dice show numbers which confuse Freddy so Freddy eats the die.

Don't be like Freddy.

[bentpaperclip]

Don't play with players that cannot do simple math. If they can't do simple math, they probably aren't bringing much in the way of cleverness to the table either.

[logan9a]

So in a couple years, Travis, you need to grow a long assed beard. Then, you need a robe. We'll have to change your house a bit to look like the top of a mountain. Then, your appearance and setting will have caught up with the wisdom which comes from your lips. [PS: Get a fake beard.]

Yes, well said.

Thank you for reminding me of the flat thing we'd agreed on previously. Unfortunately, after six years much has left my brain. Doubtless we will end up reconstructing the rules.

I will say with this new nifty Zim program organization and shit will be MUCH easier. Hell, we might even be able to make a nice online wiki of the rules.

[Scott]

Back in the day, you would usually state that we could choose to take a half penalty instead of whatever flat penalty. I always liked the either or approach.

[logan9a]

Travis made a good point on why it should be a flat -30/-60.

[Scott]

Getting to choose means that you're not favoring/screwing either side. Considering how often "roll at a quarter or die" used to come up on skills that are typically trained at 60 or less, I wouldn't want to have to have taken a -60.

[logan9a]

Jan 26, 2017 21:31:07 GMT Scott said:

Getting to choose means that you're not favoring/screwing either side. Considering how often "roll at a quarter or die" used to come up on skills that are typically trained at 60 or less, I wouldn't want to have to have taken a -60.

Not sure. I know there is a reason why the players wanted to go with the way that favored 'high skills' instead of 'low skills' but honestly, I don't remember it. Travis may remember - he has a good memory.

[bentpaperclip]

Jan 26, 2017 21:31:07 GMT Scott said:

Getting to choose means that you're not favoring/screwing either side. Considering how often "roll at a quarter or die" used to come up on skills that are typically trained at 60 or less, I wouldn't want to have to have taken a -60.

I feel like most pass or die rolls of strange skills - Piloting, Parachuting, etc. If you're trying to do a skill that you have no training in at severe penalties - why would you expect to succeed? I think if you've allowed yourself to get into that situation it may be from player errors.

I wouldn't mind choosing either/or (Half/Quarter) or -30/60, but if we have to choose one (and I'm pretty sure we do) I prefer flat modifiers.

[bentpaperclip]

Jan 26, 2017 23:23:44 GMT logan9a said:

Not sure. I know there is a reason why the players wanted to go with the way that favored 'high skills' instead of 'low skills' but honestly, I don't remember it. Travis may remember - he has a good memory.

We were trying to streamline the system. Part of that was simplifying and adding consistency. The greater issue was division penalizes players/characters unevenly (see my previous post for an example).

I do not believe that flat modifiers were unanimously accepted. I do believe at least one other player preferred the old way of doing things. In the end, Logan went with the flat modifiers idea for the reasons already listed in this thread.

[logan9a]

ATM, I'm not really leaning in any particular direction on this one.

[Scott]

Jan 27, 2017 13:30:32 GMT bentpaperclip said:

I feel like most pass or die rolls of strange skills - Piloting, Parachuting, etc. If you're trying to do a skill that you have no training in at severe penalties - why would you expect to succeed? I think if you've allowed yourself to get into that situation it may be from player errors.

I wouldn't mind choosing either/or (Half/Quarter) or -30/60, but if we have to choose one (and I'm pretty sure we do) I prefer flat modifiers.

I had to roll jump at a quarter or die at least twice in different mods without having signed up for a pole vault competition-to-the-death. It was not untrained, but at the 60% professional "I can do this for a living" level. I burned through many poz to get under 15, but an "01" target number seems kind of unreasonable.

I guess if we have to pick one then I don't have a strong opinion, but I don't see Logan saying that. I think if we can pick to choose then that is obviously better, and I don't see how whenever there is a penalty saying "Underwater Basket Weaving at -30 or half/Underwater Basket Weaving at -60 or a quarter" is inconsistent or difficult. I would add that if you can't decide which to take within 5 seconds then you automatically fail. I play D&D with a 5 second rule, this shit isn't hard.

[Scott]

If you do not have basic math proficiency or you fear "analysis paralysis" then you can even write them all out ahead of time on your sheet for every skill.

For -30 vs half the break even point is 60. For -60 vs a quarter the break even point is 80. As in if you skill is above the break even, then always take the flat penalty and if your skill is below the break even then always take half/quarter.

E.G.
Underwater Basket Weaving 43/21/10
Vomit Art 71/41/17
Drink beer w/ feet 86/56/26

[logan9a]

Jan 30, 2017 23:16:49 GMT Scott said:

I guess if we have to pick one then I don't have a strong opinion, but I don't see Logan saying that.

Actually, I did if you read my last post above.