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Post by logan9a on Feb 17, 2017 18:09:00 GMT
I was in the midst of typing out a long assed thread which included old info (see next post down in this thread) and the computer then thought I wanted to add an attachment. Hitting back caused all my typing to go the fuck away. Hurray!
Anyway, I'm thinking that weapon damage is a bit high and way overly complicated. Rather than figuring out how much someone hit by or how many bullets hit them (which lets face it generally leads to a poz or squish) I'm thinking would something like this work?
For three round burst (aka 'burst'), you must expend three rounds. For 'full auto' (aka 'auto') you must expend ten rounds. Note, not all weapons have 'burst' or 'auto' capabilities.
Pistol, light single, d6 burst, d8 auto, d6+d8
Pistol, medium single, d8 burst, d10 auto, d8+d10
Pistol, heavy single, d10 burst, d12 auto, d10+d12
Rifle, light single, d8 burst, d10 auto, d8+d10
Rifle, medium single, d10 burst, d12 auto, d10+d12
Rifle, heavy single, d12 burst, 2d8 auto, 2d12
Shotgun, light single, d10 burst, d12 auto, d10+d12
Shotgun, medium single, d12 burst, 2d8 auto, 2d12
Shotgun, heavy single, 2d8 burst, 2d10 auto, 3d10
Small hand weapon, d4 or d6 depending on GM's whim. Medium hand weapon (cricket bats, swords, etc) d8 Large hand weapon (2h weapons like spears, giant war hammers, etc) d10
Now this still leaves us with a couple questions - mainly 'full auto'. You can either suppress an area or try to spray a whole crowd. Generally with indifferent results. We had figured out a suppression thing (willpower x5(?) or seek cover) but what happens if they don't?
If someone (or multiple someones) are suppressing an area and the PC says "Do yer worst!" Well, I'm thinking there should be a good chance of getting shot.
But before we go into that, I'm wondering how you guys feel about these weapon damages.
Keep in mind that right now the most dangerous thing in the world (let's call it 'Smaug') does 5d10. Everything else does less. Sure, dead is dead but being bitten by a dragon literally the size of two 747 aircraft - thinking that's a lot of damage.
So - what do you guys think?
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Post by logan9a on Feb 17, 2017 18:15:01 GMT
As promised above, this is the post of old data we were going back and forth over before.
This I copy/pasted from the previous HC boards. Some of it may prove useful.
Melee: One attack, one defense. If you need a second (and so on) defense, -30, -60, etc. You cannot attempt a roll if you are at 0 or less.
Range: One attack, no defense - recommend trying out cover.
Double tap and three round burst and extended fire at single target - they work the same: 0/-30/-60. In other words, if you are double tapping with a pistol, declare it and shoot - one roll. If you just make it, you hit with one bullet. If you make it by 30 or more, two bullets. Same with three round burst but you can go for the making it by 60 or more for all three bullets to hit. Same with extended burst from SMG's and other full auto toys although those bullets are in groups of ten. For any of the above examples, if you crit, only the first bullet crits.
Dual weilding melee: Only advantage is that you can attack with one, block with the other (sword and shield, for example).
Dual weilding firearm: No effect yet. Need thoughts on this, right now can't do it.
Firing into a crowd trying to hit single target - as we've already hashed out.
Firing into a crowd indiscriminately (ie you don't care who gets hit at all) with a long burst or few reverse the bonus (ie large crowd you get +60, small +30). Instead of rolling how many bullets hit, the roll is for how many people got hit. This will usually result in a lot of wounded targets but with bullet damage few if any dead.
Movement back to 10'/30'.
All ranges are 20/50/100 UNLESS the weapon is a long barreled BRACED weapon (not shotgun) - then the big ranges come into effect.
Need suppressive fire and aiming rules yet.
If you want to find out the why's, listen to the podcast. If you don't have time or want to, sorry - maybe you can get in on a rule talk. I wouldn't mind one tomorrow as there will be no 'cowboy time' with Bert.
All I can think of for now. Basically, we're trying for the -30/-60/-90 standardization thing.
Three Round Burst: Roll to hit. Success means one bullet hit. every 10 thereafter is another bullet. So if you success by 1-9, one bullet hits. If you succeed by 10-19, 2 bullets hit. If you succeed by 20+, 3 bullets hit. This may sound complicated, but is really simple mathematically.
Alternatively, you could just roll 1d3 on a successful roll, but that takes shooter skill out of the equation.
Full Auto: It's basically one roll, -40 for each group of 10 after the first. So the first group of 10 is at full skill (1d10 bullets hit). The second group is at -40 (1d10 bullets hit). Etc. Currently, if you "clip it" with a magazine of 30, you still only roll 1d20 bullets to hit. This still only requires one roll, but allows for every bullet fired to potentially count for something. (Although trying for the second 10 round burst in one round it at a -80%)
Full Auto: The shooter holds the trigger down and hoses an area. Shots are broken into groups of 10. Roll a firearm skill check and compare the result. On a success, 1d10 shots hit the target. For each success group of 10 shots, subtract 40 from the skill and check the result independently. If that check also succeeds, 1d10 more shots hit. Example: A suspect unloads a magazine from a fully automatic rifle at Doyle. The magazine has 30 rounds, so that’s 3 groups of 10 bullets. The suspect has a Rifle skill of 60% and rolls a 10. The first group hits. Applying a 40% penalty to his skill, the second group still hits (60 – 40 = 20). Applying the final penalty, the suspect’s skill goes to 0, and he misses. Still, Doyle is struck by 2d10 bullets. That’s really going to piss him off! Suppressive Fire: When taking automatic fire, targets must roll Willpower x5 or dive for cover.
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Post by bentpaperclip on Feb 17, 2017 21:40:42 GMT
I don't care for it. I recognize the pattern: Shot (Die), Burst (Step Up Die), Auto (Combine Add Dice),except when it isn't (for large weapons), which creates inconsistencies.
Why not? Double Tap: +1 Damage, used 2 bullets 3 Rd Burst: +2 Damage, uses 3 bullets Auto: Double damage dice, uses 10 bullets
This effectively reduces firearm damage from previous incarnations and keeps pretty much in line with your progression (+1 damage for 3 rd burst would technically be closer, but then what would we do for double tap?).
Thoughts?
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Post by logan9a on Feb 17, 2017 21:43:54 GMT
It's simple - I'm digging it.
My feelings on it are good. I'd like to also hear what other people think on it.
Edit: Though sadly not sure how often others look at the board. Yeah. Need those implants.
Edit2: Travis - the base damages look OK to you?
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Post by bentpaperclip on Feb 17, 2017 21:55:58 GMT
Yes, except for shotgun. I'd just say, "Shotgun - d12"
No one uses "light" shotguns for anything other than skeet shooting, and "heavy" shotguns (bigger than 10 gauge) are pretty much non-existent/custom made deals. I'd imagine a 12 gauge doing d12.
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Post by logan9a on Feb 17, 2017 22:42:24 GMT
With light, I'm imagining things like the 410 etc. Will the PC's use it? Only if they are insane or finding really shit weapons.
Heavy shotgun - 10g. If this was a more complicated system anything bigger than a 12g should cause a small amount of damage to the user!
But it's not.
But I've got them in there just for completeness. Never will someone say "Why does a 410 and a 10g do the same damage?"
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thad
Senior Staff
No soy mexicano
Posts: 2,386
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Post by thad on Feb 17, 2017 23:53:13 GMT
The more complicated the rules are, the more likely you're going to rely on us to tell you what the correct roll/rule is.
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Scott
DORA
(Scott)
*Sigh*
Posts: 1,919
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Post by Scott on Feb 18, 2017 0:02:04 GMT
I agree about the trying to be consistent and then failing. The damage/damage+1/double damage looks balanced and consistent...but unrealistic. (If I 3 round burst and more than one hit then has to be more than +1...if only one of them hit then why do more at all.) Of course I'm more familiar with the old old rules where you roll the die to see how many bullets hit (Auto fire on the tommy gun being +20 to hit and firing 20 bullets, and then rolling the d20 to see how many of them hit. So 1-20d10 damage.)
Yeah, that was OP.
I realized that very quickly after my PCs got some ARs and mowed down a combat or 2. So I nerfed them. First I jacked up the price of ammo, then made the to hit bonus into a penalty, and a penalty for hitting multiple targets. (Divide skill by # of targets then add -20 penalty, so a 100 skill PC firing 20 at 2 mooks dropped to 30% to try and hit each with a d10 bullets. Or 13% for 3 and a d6.) In my opinion it's called spray and pray for a reason.
This had the effect of the PCs figuring out that it was effective and efficient to stick to 3 round bursts in general. Which I think lines up with reality well enough.
Of course if you went this way but wanted 5d10 as the max possible in the world, you could just get rid of the full auto option. Single shot mode or 3 round burst.
Oh, and dual wielding for melee and ranged back in the day got an extra attack but both were at half.
Also, I'm thinking that suppressing fire could be treated as a supporter roll. Give a bonus to whatever the other guy is trying to do if you succeed (and I guess deal damage to the villains if they decide to walk into it.) Aiming could probably be treated as supporting yourself for next round.
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Post by logan9a on Feb 18, 2017 0:14:09 GMT
I agree about the trying to be consistent and then failing. The damage/damage+1/double damage looks balanced and consistent...but unrealistic. (If I 3 round burst and more than one hit then has to be more than +1...if only one of them hit then why do more at all.) Of course I'm more familiar with the old old rules where you roll the die to see how many bullets hit (Auto fire on the tommy gun being +20 to hit and firing 20 bullets, and then rolling the d20 to see how many of them hit. So 1-20d10 damage.) Yeah, that was OP. I realized that very quickly after my PCs got some ARs and mowed down a combat or 2. So I nerfed them. First I jacked up the price of ammo, then made the to hit bonus into a penalty, and a penalty for hitting multiple targets. (Divide skill by # of targets then add -20 penalty, so a 100 skill PC firing 20 at 2 mooks dropped to 30% to try and hit each with a d10 bullets. Or 13% for 3 and a d6.) In my opinion it's called spray and pray for a reason. Yeah. Not sure how to do that yet. IRL it is totally dependent on how bunched up the targets are. I have decent (not great but decent) full auto skill (from real guns, not video games) and I'd say if the targets were bunched in a hallway, I'd rock. Then again, many would. But if they were spread out - not so much. If we wanted to go for consistency, we could even consider first target full skill, second -30, third -60 and all of them get the full auto damage. That would work if the targets were well spread out but if they are bunched up and you had the full auto SMG, honestly, they're your bitches. This had the effect of the PCs figuring out that it was effective and efficient to stick to 3 round bursts in general. Which I think lines up with reality well enough. Of course if you went this way but wanted 5d10 as the max possible in the world, you could just get rid of the full auto option. Single shot mode or 3 round burst. Saying 'you can't full auto' is not what I'm going for. Also, not saying that 5d10 is the max damage possible in the world. Saying that is the damage currently assigned to the biggest nastiest monster I have. However, if someone put a few pounds of C4 on a door (possibly with some water bags in SWAT technique), rang the doorbell and triggered it when the PC was looking through the peephole, 5d10 would be a wet dream for the PC. (Note - for something like that I'd just say "The explosion destroys the door, you, your house and a good deal of the block. Guess whose dead?) Oh, and dual wielding for melee and ranged back in the day got an extra attack but both were at half. I could probably go for that. Two attacks at -30 (or half) - any other opinions on that? Also, I'm thinking that suppressing fire could be treated as a supporter roll. Give a bonus to whatever the other guy is trying to do if you succeed (and I guess deal damage to the villains if they decide to walk into it.) Aiming could probably be treated as supporting yourself for next round. Well, as I understand it, suppressing fire is meant to get the enemy to do nothing but hide and wait for you to stop shooting them. Not sure how that could be done as a supporter honestly.
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Scott
DORA
(Scott)
*Sigh*
Posts: 1,919
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Post by Scott on Feb 18, 2017 0:25:35 GMT
Yeah. Not sure how to do that yet. IRL it is totally dependent on how bunched up the targets are. I have decent (not great but decent) full auto skill (from real guns, not video games) and I'd say if the targets were bunched in a hallway, I'd rock. Then again, many would. But if they were spread out - not so much. If we wanted to go for consistency, we could even consider first target full skill, second -30, third -60 and all of them get the full auto damage. That would work if the targets were well spread out but if they are bunched up and you had the full auto SMG, honestly, they're your bitches. Yeah... Auto weapons simply are OP in real life. Also, I'm thinking that suppressing fire could be treated as a supporter roll. Give a bonus to whatever the other guy is trying to do if you succeed (and I guess deal damage to the villains if they decide to walk into it.) Aiming could probably be treated as supporting yourself for next round. Well, as I understand it, suppressing fire is meant to get the enemy to do nothing but hide and wait for you to stop shooting them. Not sure how that could be done as a supporter honestly. [/quote] I was going for super simple, easy to remember here. Up to the GM whether is makes sense for the bonus or not.
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Post by bentpaperclip on Feb 18, 2017 23:47:25 GMT
I agree about the trying to be consistent and then failing. The damage/damage+1/double damage looks balanced and consistent...but unrealistic. Good! I was going for balanced, consistent, and unrealistic. Logan specifically requested a way to model various firing modes in a way that did more damage for more bullets, but also neutered firearm damage. My guess is because with less POZ in the game, lowering the lethality from "every bullet kills you" to "I can get shot once or twice" is the goal. This also has the side effect of making melee a more feasible choice for a character (still not as good as guns but a little more even).
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Post by bentpaperclip on Feb 18, 2017 23:54:33 GMT
I think you can already do that with a single weapon with multiattack. Unless you are getting rid of multiattacking.
My thoughts regarding suppressive fire:
1. Shooting +30 to place the shots (I'd say no roll, but we know Logan loves fumbles. Also, shooting in the air or not near the target wouldn't suppress much). 2. WILLx5 to ignore or you're pinned down for your action. 3. If you succeed and move forward, LUCK roll (or equivalent) to see if you get hit. Since the shooter isn't aiming, I wouldn't rely on their "to hit" roll - Luck seems to fit better.
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Post by logan9a on Feb 18, 2017 23:55:37 GMT
I was also thinking about one special weapon, the Barret 50 (or more modern equivalent) - this would be 'beyond heavy - must be prone and etc just to fire it. The sniper rifle deal. Possibly d20 - one shot, one kill type of thing. For normal people with 10 HP that would usually be true. Thoughts?
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Post by logan9a on Feb 19, 2017 0:01:58 GMT
I think you can already do that with a single weapon with multiattack. Unless you are getting rid of multiattacking. Was the old way split the skill in half then roll with that? I actually don't recall anyone ever doing it. I think it was seen as just better to kill one target each round by the players. No? Not sure on this. My thoughts regarding suppressive fire: 1. Shooting +30 to place the shots (I'd say no roll, but we know Logan loves fumbles. Also, shooting in the air or not near the target wouldn't suppress much). 2. WILLx5 to ignore or you're pinned down for your action. 3. If you succeed and move forward, LUCK roll (or equivalent) to see if you get hit. Since the shooter isn't aiming, I wouldn't rely on their "to hit" roll - Luck seems to fit better. Thinking willx5 is good - I dislike taking control away from the PC's. I checked my notes on Luck - "Appearance - App/Luck as a skill - start at base 25." I'm thinking OK - luck roll to see if you get hit. But what if more than one person is doing suppressive fire? 2 people, -30 3 people, -60? Note - I consider the area they're suppressing fairly small like a 10m x 10m area or something. So if four or more people are suppressing an area you will get hit. But - what kind of damage? Normal damage for every person suppressing it? 3 people suppressing an area, need to make luck by 60 only made it by 59 woe to you get hit by just one but if you'd only just made it hit by 2? Edit: I think more people suppressing an area should be much more dangerous than one guy. Butch Cassedy and the Sundance kid ending when they took on the Bolivian army or whatever that was.
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thad
Senior Staff
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Post by thad on Feb 19, 2017 4:52:51 GMT
It does come down a lot to how realistic you want it to be versus how quick do you want combat to be/how much maths should be involved. But from memory we managed to get through most combat without too many problems. Keeping the rules simple will help.
However, as we are going to be encountering different realities, including more advanced ones, do you need to start thinking about laser weapons and satellite missile platforms and the like?
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