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Post by logan9a on Feb 19, 2017 12:17:14 GMT
We've gotten it down to:
Double Tap: +1 Damage, used 2 bullets 3 Rd Burst: +2 Damage, uses 3 bullets Auto: Double damage dice, uses 10 bullets
Pistol, light d6 Pistol, medium d8 Pistol, heavy d10
Rifle, light d8 Rifle, medium d10 Rifle, heavy d12
Shotgun, light d10 Shotgun, medium d12 Shotgun, heavy 2d8
Small hand weapon, d4 or d6 depending on GM's whim. Medium hand weapon (cricket bats, swords, etc) d8 Large hand weapon (2h weapons like spears, giant war hammers, etc) d10
If we had a laser gun, I'd just have to decide what the base damage was. In most literature, lasers = slug throwers for damage so I'd just have to figure out what the base damage was and go from there.
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Post by Fantômas on Feb 20, 2017 9:57:53 GMT
Well this does go a bit more in line with the armour thread (in how well armour would protect you), however it contracts a stmt you made.
The bullet damages and effects of multiple rounds lends itself to pulp. - Which I have no problem with. Comes down to the type of game you want this to be.
You now need to consider melee and non-ballistic weapon damage and if you want it to be balanced in relation to what you are happy with guns doing or if you want non-ballistic damage to be better/worse (which all depends on the universe/multiverse feel you are wanting to create)
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Post by bentpaperclip on Feb 20, 2017 11:51:32 GMT
I was also thinking about one special weapon, the Barret 50 (or more modern equivalent) - this would be 'beyond heavy - must be prone and etc just to fire it. The sniper rifle deal. Possibly d20 - one shot, one kill type of thing. For normal people with 10 HP that would usually be true. Thoughts? I'm not a fan of using a d20 for damage. I don't like having a flat probability curve over a range that large. I'd vote for 3d6 / 4d6 / 3d8 or some such. That being said, sniping is usually problematic in rpgs because it is a win button (in real life, anyways) and can completely circumvent dramatic combat.
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Post by logan9a on Feb 20, 2017 12:05:57 GMT
I was also thinking about one special weapon, the Barret 50 (or more modern equivalent) - this would be 'beyond heavy - must be prone and etc just to fire it. The sniper rifle deal. Possibly d20 - one shot, one kill type of thing. For normal people with 10 HP that would usually be true. Thoughts? I'm not a fan of using a d20 for damage. I don't like having a flat probability curve over a range that large. I'd vote for 3d6 / 4d6 / 3d8 or some such. That being said, sniping is usually problematic in rpgs because it is a win button (in real life, anyways) and can completely circumvent dramatic combat. True but if the PC's are clever enough to get a sniper somewhere crucial with the right weapon, skill and perhaps spotter, great. Take it.
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Post by logan9a on Feb 20, 2017 12:09:39 GMT
Well this does go a bit more in line with the armour thread (in how well armour would protect you), however it contracts a stmt you made. The bullet damages and effects of multiple rounds lends itself to pulp. - Which I have no problem with. Comes down to the type of game you want this to be. You now need to consider melee and non-ballistic weapon damage and if you want it to be balanced in relation to what you are happy with guns doing or if you want non-ballistic damage to be better/worse (which all depends on the universe/multiverse feel you are wanting to create) I don't think I've actually changed the melee damage. Sword is still d8. If someone rocks a strength bonus (I think most players will be after a few sessions) it's d8+d4. Feel like I'm missing something here Pete.
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matchstickman
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Post by matchstickman on Feb 20, 2017 12:57:16 GMT
Something I have disliked with melee vs gun damage is that a d8+d4 is a better average damage than a single d10, crits do double that, if they both rolled minimum damage then a sword would do 4 points of damage and a gun would do 2, are guns really that bad compared to swords (or indeed any weapon that allows you to add a strength bonus)? (nevermind adding in martial Arts as well!)
I think this "imbalance" is what Pete is referring to, but I could be wildly wrong.
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Post by bentpaperclip on Feb 20, 2017 15:29:41 GMT
I don't think I've actually changed the melee damage. Sword is still d8. If someone rocks a strength bonus (I think most players will be after a few sessions) it's d8+d4. Feel like I'm missing something here Pete. Reducing the lethality of guns (which you requested in the OP) lends itself to pulp, but you had previously stated you wanted grittier combat. Additionally, (as pointed out by Richard) it aligns gun damage with (or below) melee damage - which leans more towards "cinematic" than "realistic." I believe the point being made is ... which is it? Do you want gritty, realistic combat (guns are better and kill you quick) or cinematic/pulpy combat (melee is equally valid & players can take several shots before going down)?
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Post by logan9a on Feb 20, 2017 16:01:11 GMT
I don't think I've actually changed the melee damage. Sword is still d8. If someone rocks a strength bonus (I think most players will be after a few sessions) it's d8+d4. Feel like I'm missing something here Pete. Reducing the lethality of guns (which you requested in the OP) lends itself to pulp, but you had previously stated you wanted grittier combat. Additionally, (as pointed out by Richard) it aligns gun damage with (or below) melee damage - which leans more towards "cinematic" than "realistic." I believe the point being made is ... which is it? Do you want gritty, realistic combat (guns are better and kill you quick) or cinematic/pulpy combat (melee is equally valid & players can take several shots before going down)? Well, shit. I'm honestly not sure. I'm thinking at this point - what do the players want? As is or should I up the gun damage a bit?
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Post by Fantômas on Feb 20, 2017 21:50:06 GMT
In regards to what I was saying - Rich & Travis got it.
In regards to what players want, unless you are intending to change your gaming style, I think Cinematic/pulp is the way you tend to run things in regards to how the world around the PCs behaves. So unless you intend to reign in the antics, pulpy/cinematic it is.
Thoughts on balancing ballistic vs non-ballistic.
1) don't have bonus damage based on str. have it based on skill. Some computer games are like this - the more skill you have the more damage you do with a weapon. This is supposed to represent the feel that the better someone is with a weapon the more likely are they not just to hit, but also hit well.
eg skill range
1-20 -1d4 21-79 +0 80-100 +1d4 or 1-10 -1d4 11-69 +0 70-89 +1d4 90-100 +1d6
For criticals can either have it just roll the weapon base damage twice or roll base and bonus twice if bonus is a positive die.
2) drop double tap and allow guns to shoot twice a round (except for single action and more primitive firearms). Allow a 3rd shot with each subsequent shot at -30 cumulative (max -60%) until pauses shooting. Even more cinematic (doves optional), allow 4th shot at -60.
eg (3 shots) Johnny decides to shoot 3 times a round - 1st shot (normal skill lvl), 2nd shot (normal skill lvl), 3rd shot (normal skill lvl), Round 2 - 1st shot (skill -30%), 2nd shot (skill -30%),3rd shot (skill -30%), round 3 - 1st shot (skill -60%), 2nd shot (skill -60%),3rd shot (skill -60%)
eg (even more cinematic option) Ah Jong likes blazing away with his pistol, so fires 4 shots in the first and subsequent rounds. 1st shot (normal skill lvl), 2nd shot (normal skill lvl), 3rd shot (normal skill lvl), 4th shot (skill - 30%). Round 2 - 1st shot (skill -60%), 2nd shot (skill -60%),doves disturbed by the shooting take off, 3rd shot (skill -60%), 4th shot (skill -60%).
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matchstickman
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Creator of and most frequent player of the Heroic Cthulhu Drinking Game
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Post by matchstickman on Feb 20, 2017 23:52:32 GMT
Should a strength bonus... hell should the first level of a strength bonus really by able to combat the hardiest of armours?
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Post by logan9a on Feb 21, 2017 0:04:37 GMT
In regards to what I was saying - Rich & Travis got it. In regards to what players want, unless you are intending to change your gaming style, I think Cinematic/pulp is the way you tend to run things in regards to how the world around the PCs behaves. So unless you intend to reign in the antics, pulpy/cinematic it is. I enjoy the antics I must say. Thoughts on balancing ballistic vs non-ballistic. 1) don't have bonus damage based on str. have it based on skill. Some computer games are like this - the more skill you have the more damage you do with a weapon. This is supposed to represent the feel that the better someone is with a weapon the more likely are they not just to hit, but also hit well. eg skill range 1-20 -1d4 21-79 +0 80-100 +1d4 or 1-10 -1d4 11-69 +0 70-89 +1d4 90-100 +1d6 I get what you're saying but I kind of do like having a skill like: Strength - change to 'strength' as a skill. If you have 80+ you get a +d4 damage bonus. If you have over 110 you get a +d6 damage bonus. Base 25. I'm thinking that it is possible to get over 100 even starting at 60. Takes longer but possible. And that gives a reason to not only build up another skill but makes a difference between stronger and weaker characters. I get that it would be nice to have more skill = more damage but I'm OK leaving that to criticals. For criticals can either have it just roll the weapon base damage twice or roll base and bonus twice if bonus is a positive die. If I'm not mistaken that's what we were doing before. Fist plus martial arts = two chances to crit - or fumble. Though the fumble negates the entire attack and takes you to the fumble deck. But if you got a normal hit with fist and a crit martial arts, if I'm not mistaken it was 4d3 damage no? 2) drop double tap and allow guns to shoot twice a round (except for single action and more primitive firearms). Allow a 3rd shot with each subsequent shot at -30 cumulative (max -60%) until pauses shooting. Even more cinematic (doves optional), allow 4th shot at -60. That would wildly increase (ie double) gun damage - taking us back from 'pulpy/cinematic' to 'gritty' wouldn't it? Also, it is inconsistent requiring this to explain it: I know original COC rules did have firearms (most) shooting 2 (sometimes 3) times per round. Always hated that - it was one of the first things I dropped.
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Post by logan9a on Feb 21, 2017 0:08:30 GMT
Should a strength bonus... hell should the first level of a strength bonus really by able to combat the hardiest of armours? Do you mean: The guy with no Str bonus - or martial arts - decides to beat a guy in plate mail to death with his fists. For...reasons. Armor of 3. Fist does d3. Hence, until fist boy gets a crit he does no damage. A crit does 2d3-3. A very strong guy (80 strength) does d3+d4-3 to plate boy. ...Needing an 80% in Strength skill. Assuming he has no martial arts. ...It would still be a long, painful beat down. Assuming plate boy only had 10 HP and fist guy was rolling 5 total damage -3 = 2 damage per round. Five rounds to KO plate guy. If he just stood there.
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matchstickman
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Creator of and most frequent player of the Heroic Cthulhu Drinking Game
Posts: 2,939
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Post by matchstickman on Feb 21, 2017 0:52:16 GMT
So what if it would be long and slow, should it happen at all? Is that something you want to happen or not, gritty or pulp?
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Post by logan9a on Feb 21, 2017 1:05:54 GMT
Well, it is simple and consistent.
Do you think I should lower the fist damage? Strength bonus damage? Martial arts damage?
Note - I do not want to raise armor values. (See long winded story I put up about the problems with too much armor somewhere but I forgot where I put it.)
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matchstickman
Agent
Messiah: Will rise again
Creator of and most frequent player of the Heroic Cthulhu Drinking Game
Posts: 2,939
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Post by matchstickman on Feb 21, 2017 11:56:27 GMT
Do you think I should lower the fist damage? Strength bonus damage? Martial arts damage? Yes, if you want gritty. No, if you want pulp.
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