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Post by logan9a on Apr 12, 2019 15:05:16 GMT
So if you make 2 trumps like that, you can choose what they are of even if you don't physically go there and paint it? Good question - I'd assume that the PC's have at least spent a little time (hour?) in a location you wanted to paint. Or with someone you wanted to paint. Otherwise, it would be pretty silly. There are higher level Trump powers that are along the lines of 'if you saw it, you can paint it' but that is as good as it gets. You can never make a Trump of somewhere you've never personally been or of someone you've never personally met - unless you get the later 'copy Trump' ability. But honestly, getting any abilities very high up is 'kind of an extra' as I don't plan any campaigns that are along the lines of 'if you don't have this super high level ability you cannot succeed' for stuff you are meant to actually do as opposed to 'shit going on that is completely out of my hands and I am powerless to effect' which there (like in real life) always is. The 'limited training/trump rolls' thing also solves (before it happens) the 'fast time' shadows problem. Even the Amberites don't go there and suddenly return with a boatload of new skills and such. They use those shadows either for fast healing (which the PC's have that beat in their native zones) or... hum. Actually, that's about all they use them for. On the flip side, you could go to a 'slow time' zone if you wanted to 'lie low' for awhile but they never seem to do that because they know they'd miss out on shit.
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Post by logan9a on Apr 12, 2019 16:09:26 GMT
Here's what I'm thinking currently:
If a Pattern, Logrus or shapeshifting skill fits into the story you can use it as you would other skills currently. Blatant skill whoring will be disallowed as it is with every other skill.
You get ten attempts to Trumps per session. If you can't do it because your skill is low, tough. Build up your skill. Maybe someone else will make some cards for you. Very few people of the royal family can even make the cards - they are not a birthright to make. [Has to be of a person you either hung out with for a bit that wouldn't have objected to you painting them or in a place where you hung out for a bit that it would have been possible for you to pull out paints without getting run off. The difference is that you don't have to do it 'right then'.]
You get ten attempts for outright training in your choice of Pattern, Logrus, Shapeshifting or spell (ie petty magics) skills. If you want to try the same skill over and over or ten different ones, it's up to you. Because there are cards that can help you, unless it begins to gum up game play you can do the whole set of ten whenever you want but do them all at once. Otherwise, knock them out at the end of game before you try skill ups. [Note - again, if you can find a valid reason to use your skills during the campaign that the GM is OK with and isn't flagrantly skill whoring you can still attempt it normally.]
Unless I hear something I like a whole lot better, this will be the play test for next season. My other option regarding the Trump cards is to say "Better hold on to the ones you've already got because no new ones can be made at all - something must have happened to the universe."
{Anyone wondering "Why aren't we able to make magic shit" - right here. This is the problem. In a different system where stuff was on a point buy (Champions, etc) and you had to spend points for each of your inventions that you didn't get back it attempts a type of balance.}
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PotatoJedi
DORA
Alex. Apparently Freddy now.
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Post by PotatoJedi on Apr 12, 2019 16:23:04 GMT
Might want to change that to "You can make 10 attempts to create trumps per session." That way you can make more than one.
But, my question still lies: what if you need a trump right then and there? Say you travel to a new zone, roam around for a bit and decide to head back to the Embassy to rest up, but you want to paint a Trump of this new place before you leave. Is that permitted? You're not making trumps for the sake of making trumps.
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Post by logan9a on Apr 12, 2019 16:30:48 GMT
Might want to change that to "You can make 10 attempts to create trumps per session." That way you can make more than one. But, my question still lies: what if you need a trump right then and there? Say you travel to a new zone, roam around for a bit and decide to head back to the Embassy to rest up, but you want to paint a Trump of this new place before you leave. Is that permitted? You're not making trumps for the sake of making trumps. Well, you could (if you have cards in your hand to do it easier) stop and do your ten painting rolls right there OR GM: "Anything else you want to do before leaving the happy new zone you found?" Player: "We'll paint some trumps of it but I'll take care of those rolls at the end of the game." GM: "Super. You loiter like pros then head back to the Embassy." Player: (Makes note that Happy New Zone has been successfully loitered in for purposes of Trump making.) Cut to - the end of the game: Player: "OK - for my ten Trumps, the first four rolls are to make one of myself, the next six are of happy new zone. I need both badly." /roll 10d100 GM: "Neat." Player: "Well, I got one of myself but none of Happy New Zone. Guess I'll have to go back next session and loiter there some more." GM: "Neat."
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PotatoJedi
DORA
Alex. Apparently Freddy now.
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Post by PotatoJedi on Apr 12, 2019 16:41:07 GMT
I meant more:
Let's head back to the embassy and rest up. But first, let's paint a trump of Happy New Zone so we can get back here quickly after we have rested.
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Post by logan9a on Apr 12, 2019 16:43:15 GMT
I meant more: Let's head back to the embassy and rest up. But first, let's paint a trump of Happy New Zone so we can get back here quickly after we have rested. Then I would simply say "I'm now doing my Trump attempts." You get ten. If it doesn't work, try again next session if you can get there. In other words, some shit may just (for the time) be beyond your skill. I think having to have two skills yes does make it harder - but it is a (kind of) permanent magic item. And a damned good one. The PC's don't necessarily get to have cards of every place they go regardless of how bad they want them.
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PotatoJedi
DORA
Alex. Apparently Freddy now.
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Post by PotatoJedi on Apr 12, 2019 17:17:07 GMT
So if I'm understanding correctly: if you want to create a trump immediately in-game, then you have to use your 10 attempts then and there. You may end up with 10 trumps of that place, or (if you have been to other places during the session and is appropriate) you might be able to make trumps of other places you have been to as well.
Another question: do you have to specify beforehand what all 10 trumps are of or can you say "I attempt to paint a trump of the embassy. I succeed after 3 attempts. I attempt to paint a trump of the Stalwart's House. I succeed after 5 attempts. I attempt to paint a trump of The White Dove. I fail my last 2 attempts."
What about the other 10 practices you get (pattern, shape shifting, etc)? Can you say "I practice my Detect Pattern. I succeed after 7 attempts. I'll use my other 3 practices on shape shifting. I fail all of them"?
By the way, I've made a macro that will do that all for you automatically if that's how we're doing things. Roll up to 10 times. If you succeed, it will automatically stop rolling at the point that you succeeded. Then you can do whatever with the rest of your attempts the same way.
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Post by logan9a on Apr 12, 2019 17:25:42 GMT
So if I'm understanding correctly: if you want to create a trump immediately in-game, then you have to use your 10 attempts then and there. You may end up with 10 trumps of that place, or (if you have been to other places during the session and is appropriate) you might be able to make trumps of other places you have been to as well. You can simply tell the GM "We're loitering with intent of making trumps" - whether you do or not later is up to you. Another question: do you have to specify beforehand what all 10 trumps are of or can you say "I attempt to paint a trump of the embassy. I succeed after 3 attempts. I attempt to paint a trump of the Stalwart's House. I succeed after 5 attempts. I attempt to paint a trump of The White Dove. I fail my last 2 attempts." I'd be OK with someone saying "My order is "new zone", "myself" and "Freddy" then rolling 10d100. If all but the last roll on painting (for example) are fails, then the only one they have a chance at is 'new zone'. Make sense? What about the other 10 practices you get (pattern, shape shifting, etc)? Can you say "I practice my Detect Pattern. I succeed after 7 attempts. I'll use my other 3 practices on shape shifting. I fail all of them"? Same as above. By the way, I've made a macro that will do that all for you automatically if that's how we're doing things. Roll up to 10 times. If you succeed, it will automatically stop rolling at the point that you succeeded. Then you can do whatever with the rest of your attempts the same way. Could be done that way but I'm thinking it isn't hard to say "Here are my top three in order". If they roll four 01 in a row, they can say 'well, my fourth attempt is ah er - this thing here! Because chances are against it.
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PotatoJedi
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Alex. Apparently Freddy now.
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Post by PotatoJedi on Apr 12, 2019 17:34:31 GMT
Cool. Well, either way the macro is more or less done and it's really easy to use. It may just streamline it a bit more rather than saying "here's my top three" you say "here's what I'm doing now. Let's see how many (if any) attempts I have remaining" and carry on from there. Completely optional (I'll probably use it since it will make it easier for my brain to process how many I have left etc).
Last question: how much "loitering" is needed to be able to then later create your trump of that place? An hour? A day?
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Post by logan9a on Apr 12, 2019 18:43:39 GMT
Just point it out in passing - I'm not worried about an exact time. My question would then be "Is it logical if they were to be able to sit down and make a painting?"
If you try it in - for example - a pawn shop, I will say "Hahaha. No."
But if you are at some statue out in a park that people normally don't go to and say "We loiter with the intention of painting" sure - on your way with ya.
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PotatoJedi
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Alex. Apparently Freddy now.
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Post by PotatoJedi on Apr 12, 2019 18:54:17 GMT
Okay. Though this kind of eliminates the possibility of creating "sneaky" trumps of places (i.e. hiding in a bank at night, making a sketch and then trumping out or whatever).
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Post by logan9a on Apr 12, 2019 18:58:05 GMT
Okay. Though this kind of eliminates the possibility of creating "sneaky" trumps of places (i.e. hiding in a bank at night, making a sketch and then trumping out or whatever). Unless you want to do all ten of your trump attempts there and then. I realize it is limiting but these are meant to be special things - not 'hey, let's do a petty robbery thing'. There are less than half dozen (I believe) people in Amber WHO CAN EVEN MAKE THEM.
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PotatoJedi
DORA
Alex. Apparently Freddy now.
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Post by PotatoJedi on Apr 12, 2019 21:57:23 GMT
Fair enough.
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Post by logan9a on Apr 12, 2019 22:06:47 GMT
I like that you are asking all of the little questions which people might later ask. I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on this as well. I realize it will not be popular, but when players have the ability to churn out magic items, you need a limit on them aside from time and materials. In the real world, that is enough. If I told someone they had to spend 8 hours a day working hard for a month on a sword that did a little more damage, they might say that was no problem but the project would quickly go by the wayside. In a game, it is quite easy to say "We just do that for a month. Next?" Same with spending time learning to become a painter, etc.
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PotatoJedi
DORA
Alex. Apparently Freddy now.
Posts: 1,823
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Post by PotatoJedi on Apr 12, 2019 22:21:42 GMT
I'm assuming when we want to "mark" an area for potential trump making later on we just say "we loiter a bit" and then move on?
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