Speaking of mapping...

[logan9a]

See if this makes sense (esp Travis - go Marines!)

For movement through hexes, I am averaging it out. I know there are some GM's who say 'you can move 18 miles a day through this type of terrain and 15 through this'. To me, that's a slapping. Actually a double slapping. First, I'm not going to worry about really small differences. Second, I'm not going to use an outdated system of measurement based on a dead monarch's foot.

So - here's what I've got thus far for movement:

According to research, Roman soldiers could do about 40 KM per day marching. Even slowing that way down (you have a very small force (ie probably just the PC's, maybe a couple friends), might be attacked at any time, you're not traveling on roads, you're carrying a bunch of shit, you have to have daylight left over to build a shelter, gather lots of firewood, hunt for food and on top of all that, you're looking for interesting stuff) to half that (20KM).

If the terrain is kind of fucked up (hills, jungle, thick woods), 10 KM per day.

If it is super fucked up, (swamp, cypress trees boy those suck ass), 5 KM per day.


Thoughts?

[bentpaperclip]

I prefer to go per hour rather than per day - since day length varies greatly depending on time of year and location, and walking at night sucks. Besides, sometimes you don't *need* to build a shelter, or find firewood, or hunt. Also, small groups move faster than large groups (large groups being limited by their slowest member, livestock, wagons, etc.)

I'll post more later.

[logan9a]

True. On second thought, we could always say "How far do PC's travel?" Well, on this hex map - two of these hex things per day. "How far are they across?" "About a half day travel."

"Unless you get into these 'harder to cross hexes. They suck ass."

That might be easier and keep us from getting into a numbers swamp?

[logan9a]

Note, you can see (horizon) on flat ground a bit over 4KM. 30m hill, about 20KM. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon
Hence, you can see in the same hex you are in. If you get up high, maybe two hexes.

Each hex on the map is 10 KM. Hence, you can see the hex you're in or one adjacent when you get close to the border.
On flat terrain, you can travel 2 hexes per day.
Salt marsh (muddy, brackish, insects, etc) 1 hex per day.


Special note: Given a fairly unobstructed view, the internet tells me you can see a mountain from about 160km (about 16 hexes) away.

Hence, it will be difficult to have one sneak up on the PC's.

[bentpaperclip]

Pace is always tough to pin down because of all the factors going into it. For instance, you say "Base Pace of 20KM/day in average terrain" and I think "what kind of lazy as PCs are we dealing with?" Not saying we can't use those numbers, but they seem low to me.

My real life paces:
Jogging (unencumbered): 11.25km/hr, for up to 4 hours, in roughly level terrain. That would be 4 1/2 hexes in less than half a day.
Hiking/Walking (unencumbered): 5km/hr, sustainable, in flat terrain (this is 20 minutes/km). Slightly less in "average mountainous i.e. Apalacian Moutains" terrain due to inclines taking more distance to travel the same length (as the crow flies).
Hiking/Walking (60-80 lb pack): Same pace but more rests. To be conservative, I'd say 2/3 pace so 3KM/hr.

All of this assumes a trail of some kind, if I'm trailblazing it takes longer (sometimes much longer) as I have to cut through debris or double back occasionally.

It depends on how realistic you want to get. Not very, you say? Then off hand I'd say, your base pace is 5km/hr.
Adverse conditions, such as encumbered, poor terrain, danger, poor lighting, etc. Halve it (round up) to 3km/hr.
Really adverse conditions, such as 3 of the above or hellish terrain. Halve it again (round up) to 2 km/hr.
How long do you plan on traveling? - Multiply by pace to determine daily distance.
Want to go faster? - "Push" with a skill roll/Con roll, possibly with some Stun damage, to increase pace one degree (double pace).
Travel for more than 8 hours you say? - "Push" with a skill roll/Con roll to avoid Stun damage/negative modifiers to rolls.

[bentpaperclip]

In the above, you'd almost always end up with some kind of adverse conditions, meaning that your pace would be 3km/hr and traveling 8 hours without a roll. This means your daily pace without some kind of skill/Con roll would be 24km (I'd probably round to 25km. This is close to your proposed average but allows for heroes to push themselves to travel faster.

[bentpaperclip]

Or you could steal/adapt from another system (Mutants and Masterminds).  Average person has a Speed of 0.  Terrain can make that -1 or -2.  You can "Push" for +1 Speed.  (See attachments)

Attachments:

[logan9a]

If I'm reading that MM table, it says push for double, bad is half?

If I'm reading it right, for our purposes here it doesn't seem a particularly useful table? Though it does have lots of numbers and columns.




24km/day seems pretty close to 20km/day to me. For that little, I'd say let's pretend the maps are stretched out a bit. Fear not, I will mess with all living creatures travel rate for I don't like them either.

I would agree that if the PC's are moving quickly (we don't need to carry this gear, are no longer worried about steeping into a hole by fumbling our walk roll, aren't really going around looking for stuff - just trying to get to a place) yeah - they could go 30km or 40km. This is again assuming 6-8 hours travel. The place will not be 'safe', I'm thinking building a camp would include 'doing something so what's out there doesn't kill us while we're sleeping' type of thing.

But yeah - I could see the PC's 'hurrying back for 3 hexes' and 'push it we got to move rest when we're dead' for four? Give con rolls and stun damage for doing that. Yes, cool.


Note: In thinking about it later, even the Great Logan (great in this context meaning 'amazingly fat') has done 15k in about 3 hours. But then (aside from my personal bulk) unencumbered, on roads or paths, not slowing down to keep a sharp eye around to see if I was going to get attacked all the time, not really looking for 'interesting shit'.

And I didn't have to do it for days on end. Or build a fire/shelter/defenses at the end of the day.

And my damn foot still broke. WTF.

[bentpaperclip]

So you are saying 20km/day for 8 hours of hiking in difficult AND treacherous terrain, so we are unlikely to see negative modifiers to that? Because in your first post 20km/day was for every hour in the day (not just 8) and easy terrain. If the above is correct the I say sure, sounds okay.

[bentpaperclip]

Jan 11, 2017 12:57:56 GMT logan9a said:

Note: In thinking about it later, even the Great Logan (great in this context meaning 'amazingly fat') has done 15k in about 3 hours. But then (aside from my personal bulk) unencumbered, on roads or paths, not slowing down to keep a sharp eye around to see if I was going to get attacked all the time, not really looking for 'interesting shit'.

And I didn't have to do it for days on end. Or build a fire/shelter/defenses at the end of the day.

And my damn foot still broke. WTF.

Methinks the Great Logan shouldn't be used as a benchmark for "average." We all know you are very, very special.

[bentpaperclip]

Actually, this might be the best bit of info I've found yet. blog.rei.com/hike/21-appalachian-trail-statistics-that-will-surprise-entertain-and-inform-you/

Short version - it takes the average hiker who completes it 165 days to hike the Appalachian Trail (approx. 3,500KM). That's 21KM/day with pack, making camp/fire, dealing with terrain and elevation changes, but not having to really worry too much about danger or trailblazing.

Therefore, I think we're on the right track.

[logan9a]

Hum. It is always troubling when you look at the map and say "I think I made it too damned small."

For easy terrain (not the Ap trail which is hard though I would like to point out there is a road/path which would give a positive modifier) here is what is now going through my head - see what you think.

Note, each hex is 10km

These are for easy terrain. For difficult terrain (hills, etc) half. For fucked up god I hate it here terrain (badlands, swamp), half again.

2 hexes per day: If there is anything to be seen in this hex we will see it. If there is a monster, chances are good we will surprise it. We are not just walking in a straight line necessarily but actively searching the hex.

3 hexes per day: We are stepping out. Searching may or may not happen. Monsters might surprise us, we might surprise them.

4 hexes per day: We believe there are no monsters. If there are, we will get quite a shock.

Road +1 hex per day. Note, if you are sticking to the road, you aren't wandering around the hex but if going at a grand total of just 3 hexes per day, you are traveling slowly and keeping your eyes well and truly open.

Hence, if people were rushing along a road (endurance checks and all that) saying "We don't care what is going on we are in a great big hurry to get somewhere) they could go at 50KM per day.

On the other hand, if the PC's are going through a messed up 'there are holes everywhere under the water and I suspect I just stepped on a crocodile' swamp, and going slowly and cautiously, trying to search the hex and such, they'd go at half a hex per day. If they wanted to go faster (medium speed) they'd get through 75% of a hex per day. If they said "We are convinced we are the baddest mutherfuckers in the valley - do your worst" and just ran through the swamp (endurance checks) 1 hex per day. For the worst terrain I can imagine. 10KM per day through that sounds like it would be completely shattering.

What do you think?

(PS: If there was a road through the swamp, I would assume it was elevated dry and had less crocs on it than usual thus the players could make outstanding time. Otherwise, why call it a 'road'?)

[bentpaperclip]

Is the "Road +1 Hex" applied before or after the terrain modifiers? What about if you aren't encumbered?

To use the AP trail to test your system, we've got:
4 hexes/day - we're just walking, no monsters.
Halve speed due to difficult terrain.
+1 Hex for Road
That gives us either 30KM/day or 25KM/day - would marching at that speed be sustainable under this system? It seems that the 4km/day is the "Con vs Stun" zone, but if the average hiker (who completes it) can maintain this for 6 months I doubt they are doing a bunch of Con rolls each day.

At first view that seems workable - though I'm not sure what you would do if someone says, "I'm walking for more than 8 hours." Also, specific modifiers for 3 & 4 Hex /day travel need to be determined. I'm thinking modifiers to Notice and Con rolls to resist Stun.

[logan9a]

I'm thinking hex +/- then chop for difficult terrain.

"That gives us either 30KM/day or 25KM/day - would marching at that speed be sustainable under this system?" Thinking so - that's going through the hills on a road, yes?

" It seems that the 4km/day is the "Con vs Stun" zone" Huh? You mean per hour?

"but if the average hiker (who completes it) can maintain this for 6 months I doubt they are doing a bunch of Con rolls each day." Thinking the average hiker probably doesn't carry a bunch of weapons, wear armor and go through intermittent combat either. Well, at least none of the hikers that I've talked to. True the rest may have all died preventing me from meeting them.

"At first view that seems workable - though I'm not sure what you would do if someone says, "I'm walking for more than 8 hours." Also, specific modifiers for 3 & 4 Hex /day travel need to be determined." I'd count it as 'pushing it' and they'd get to make some rolls I think.

"I'm thinking modifiers to Notice and Con rolls to resist Stun." Remember - no con - endurance I think is the new con replacement skill? Also, the question would come up - how much stun per how much pushing. Stun is logical. If you're already wounded and you try pushing it, you may pass out. Perfectly acceptable in my eyes. Wounded people like passing out. It's what they do.

[Also, with the A Trail, it seems about a third of the people who do it complete it (thru-hikers). Source: www.laughingdog.com/2012/02/appalachian-trail-completion-rates.html I'm sure there are plenty of people who just go on it to do part of it but when it was first started, being a thru hiker was a big deal. Also, the hikers have plenty of food (which adventurers don't always get) to maintain a 5500 calorie per day average. Source: blog.rei.com/hike/21-appalachian-trail-statistics-that-will-surprise-entertain-and-inform-you/ In addition, the trail is really well maintained and has rest stops. Plus there are shelters every eight miles or so - meaning that the whole making camp thing the PC's have to do isn't nearly so critical there. (Same source, further down). Plus, it's the whole difference of ultra light modern gear vs 'what kind of fucked up world is this' heavy gear.]

Even horses don't travel all that fast - about 30km per day. Source: www.reference.com/pets-animals/far-can-horse-travel-one-day-bf5864aa50254c85 But you can carry a lot more heavy, clunky gear. The trade off is that you have to stop even earlier to take care of the horses. Watched a survival show on that (forgot which one) but the guy only got in something like six (??) hours of travel per day. Horses suck for the amount of care you have to do for them.

Note (on same source) it does also say "Horses are capable of traveling much faster than 20 or 30 miles per day, but it may not be very good for their long-term health. For example, a famous race held in 1892 that covered 350 miles in 72 hours (averaging 117 miles per day) killed 13% of the horses entered. When horseback riders want to cover long distances at a high rate of speed they generally employ stages, or horse changes. For example, the Pony Express riders averaged 10 miles per hour but changed horses every 25 miles or so. By changing horses, they could routinely cover 80 to 100 miles per day." Although it killed 13% of the horses it doesn't say what percentage came up lame from going that fast. In addition, I'm going to make a wild guess that nobody was worried about monsters attacking part way through the race.

[bentpaperclip]

" It seems that the 4km/day is the "Con vs Stun" zone" Huh? You mean per hour?

That should read 40km/day, not 4km/day.

"but if the average hiker (who completes it) can maintain this for 6 months I doubt they are doing a bunch of Con rolls each day." Thinking the average hiker probably doesn't carry a bunch of weapons, wear armor and go through intermittent combat either.

True, but most adventurers aren't carrying 6 months worth of equipment either. I'd call it a wash.

"At first view that seems workable - though I'm not sure what you would do if someone says, "I'm walking for more than 8 hours." Also, specific modifiers for 3 & 4 Hex /day travel need to be determined." I'd count it as 'pushing it' and they'd get to make some rolls I think.

Agreed. I was pointing out that we would need to come up with what those rolls are and what/how much they ding you if you fail.

"I'm thinking modifiers to Notice and Con rolls to resist Stun." Remember - no con - endurance I think is the new con replacement skill? Also, the question would come up - how much stun per how much pushing. Stun is logical.

"Con" is just a generic term until a more fitting replacement is found.

[Also, with the A Trail, it seems about a third of the people who do it complete it (thru-hikers). Source: www.laughingdog.com/2012/02/appalachian-trail-completion-rates.html I'm sure there are plenty of people who just go on it to do part of it but when it was first started, being a thru hiker was a big deal. Also, the hikers have plenty of food (which adventurers don't always get) to maintain a 5500 calorie per day average. Source: blog.rei.com/hike/21-appalachian-trail-statistics-that-will-surprise-entertain-and-inform-you/ In addition, the trail is really well maintained and has rest stops. Plus there are shelters every eight miles or so - meaning that the whole making camp thing the PC's have to do isn't nearly so critical there. (Same source, further down). Plus, it's the whole difference of ultra light modern gear vs 'what kind of fucked up world is this' heavy gear.]

I recognize that distance hiking burns many calories, not sure how that's relevant. As far as gear, the only thing I have to go on is the previous campaign and that you've mentioned that most people will be playing characters with "modern sensibilities" so I believed we'd have access to modern gear.